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Tuesday, February 05, 2008
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach and Christopher Hitchens: The Debate Continues

Last week we posted a video excerpt from the “Does God Exist?” debate held at the 92nd Street Y between Rabbi Shmuley Boteach and Christopher Hitchens but one specific point remains to be settled. In the debate, Rabbi Boteach disputed Hitchens’ claim that an Israeli rabbinical court ever made a ruling that strict observation of the Sabbath cannot be broken to save the life of a non-Jew. Hitchens wrote to the Y to follow up on the challenge and Rabbi Boteach has responded. Both have requested that the exchange be published here.

imageI am writing on a point of principle and a point of information. I quote from the opening page of Chapter 1 ["A Closed Utopia?"] of Dr. Israel Shahak’s book Jewish History, Jewish Religion (Pluto Press 1994):

This book, though written in English and addressed to people living outside the State of Israel, is, in a way, a continuation of my political activities as an Israeli Jew.

Those activities began in 1965-6 with a protest which caused a considerable scandal at the time: I had personally witnessed an ultra-religious Jew refuse to allow his phone to be used on the Sabbath in order to call an ambulance for a non-Jew who happened to have collapsed in his Jerusalem neighborhood.

Instead of simply publishing the incident in the press, I asked for a meeting with the members of the Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem, which is composed of rabbis nominated by the State of Israel.

I asked them whether such behavior was consistent with their interpretation of the Jewish religion. They answered that the Jew in question had behaved correctly, indeed piously, and backed their statement by referring me to an authoritative compendium of Talmudic laws, written in this century. I reported the incident to the main Hebrew daily, Haaretz, whose publication of the story caused a media scandal.

As you may remember from the event at the 92nd Street Y on Wednesday evening January 30th, I was challenged by Rabbi Shmuley Boteach to provide a source for an assertion I had made on Orthodox teaching in this respect, and promised by him that he would buy 100 new copies of my book if I could materialize my point. I hereby submit this excerpt, and beg three things of you:

1) That those who subscribed to the broadcast version of the debate are made aware of my response.
2) That Rabbi Boteach is likewise made aware of it (I have no channel of communication to him).
3) That one of you agrees to act as arbiter until the task - surely quite easy - of consulting the relevant Haaretz files has been completed. I think the burden here now rests with Boteach, though I shall meanwhile institute some inquiries of my own.

I take this opportunity to say that it is always a distinction to be invited to appear on your platform.

Sincerely,
Christopher Hitchens

# # #

imageDear Christopher,

Thank you very much for your email which I only received this morning. And, let me thank you for agreeing to the debate the other night. Your email divined my own weekly article on the subject (Jerusalem Post: “Christopher Hitchens and the racist Jewish court”) which was written Saturday night and Sunday. After you mentioned that Shahak was your source, I investigated the incident. As you surely know, Lord Immanuel Jacobovits, one of the world’s leading medical ethicist’s and the highly respected late Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom and member of the House of Lords, exposed Shahak’s letter as a fraud a year after it was written. I enclosed my article on the same. Interestingly as you will see, Shahak does not mention name of the Rabbinical court (there are hundreds of Rabbinical courts in Jerusalem). Less so does he cite a single source within Talmudic law, because he knows the Talmud says the exact opposite, that the Sabbath is desecrated to save the life of a non-Jew.  Even if Shahak were to be a source, and Shahak, as you know (he was a close friend of yours) has made many sourceless defamatory allegations against Jews, such as my article says, your book still says that, “many” Rabbinical courts say that Jews must not save the life of a non-Jew on the Sabbath. I ask you to please therefore cite another source which would justify your statement of “many.”

Shahak refers to a single incident, and even then, not one where the Sabbath would even be desecrated. There is no prohibition in allowing one’s phone to be used on the Sabbath, as you no doubt know. The prohibition is using it yourself. And, second, after reading my article on the subject, would you please respond?  I, too, asked that the readership of the 92nd Street Y please be made aware of my article on the subject, and of Christopher’s email citing Shahak as the source, and my comments on the same. I welcome the appointment of an arbiter and I agree that those who watched the debate around the world should be made aware of my article and Christopher’s email. And, I will await Christopher to bring more sources to justify the “many” he cites.

Wishing you all the best.

Sincerely,
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

# # #

Related Reading: This topic was extensively researched by Gil Student in 2001, “Shabbat and Gentile Lives.”

Update: Watch the FULL VERSION of the video.



Comments Reader Comments

Alex,

Glad to see you agree with me on qualifying the opinion of Rabbi Isser Yehuda Unterman.

The Shulchan Aruch is thousands of pages. Quoting a line out of it without a reference does not help me. I would need to refer to the source (preferably in the original language which was not English).

In reference to Maimonides (Rambam) quote: Clearly the Rambam saved Gentile lives - he was the personal physician to the Sultan of Egypt. He also performed on many other Gentiles. It seems that throughout history (and through today) a Jew not helping a non-Jew would create hostility (just check out the postings above). Therefore, there would be no prohibition for a Jew to save a Gentile’s life.

But the bigger question is this: In what other country/religion is their a moral imperative to save someone’s life? Have we entered the Seinfeld world? I particularly like Iván Löhr’s quote above “As conscious beings we should all stand for each other.”

Last time I checked throughout the ages countries/nations have stood by while people have died. Today, how many people are actually *doing* something to save the lives of people in Sudan? Where is the moral outrage at your fellow Americans for “letting” people die? If those people were living in America, we certainly would protect them. Why don’t we afford them the same protection, since we are all humans? Why treat the Sudanese different than Americans? Their blood is just as red.

I find it richly ironic that posters on this site will tear into the Jewish religion for treating people differently, when Americans and almost every country on Earth does the exact same thing!  “But there in Sudan, so who cares!” (response I have heard before)

Would you be outraged to find out your doctor only saves your life because he gets paid? Would he be immoral? I wonder if it would be considered immoral to pass up the chance to work in a field where you could save lives and instead work someplace else for lots of money?

According to the UN about 25,000 people die every day of hunger or hunger-related causes EVERY DAY. If I buy an IPod for 250 bucks, would I be considered a killer for not helping those starving people and quite possibly saving their lives? Oh, I guess it doesn’t count when you can’t see the person.

I completely disagree that a court would have told Shahak that the telephone incident was “pious.” The words legal and pious are completely different. Shahak had 30 years to identify the court or ask them for a ruling in writing. I wonder why he didn’t? Shahak’s scholarship of Jewish law was not close to that of the Rabbi Isser Yehuda Unterman, disagreed with him. I would go with the Rav Unterman any day of the week over Shahak.

It’s crazy to think that Jewish law favors Jews, American law favors American, French law favors French, etc. I guess everyone is immoral in this category, except maybe, you.

If you had the chance to save two complete strangers’ lives or you own mother who would you pick? If you picked your mother, would that be immoral? How could you favor your mother (family) and let two people die? The Jewish belief is that every other Jew is part of their family and should be treated accordingly.

The idea that people treat everyone exactly the same is a complete fallacy. If you want to try to highlight that Jewish law does this, than be an equal opportunity basher and list’em all. Good luck.

By MDR at February 25, 2008, 4:51pm

Boteach asked for one source which was provided whether he believes it is credible or not.

By J at March 04, 2008, 4:15am

Dear Moderator.

STOP CENSURING THE COMMENTS.

At least present both sides of the argument.

By John Long at March 19, 2008, 12:44am

Judaism needs no apologists, surely not ones as Boteach. It seems Boteach is more concerned with “Kosher Sex” than he is with rational thought of the modern world compared to classical Jewish Thought. A real “Rabbi” would crush Hitchens. The true question is why no rabbi has come out publicly.

Boteach lost, and I don’t care about the Shahak case. He lost overall. His arguments were weak and flimsy.

By em57 at March 24, 2008, 6:07pm

what´s an orthodox Jew / observant Jew doing carrying a phone during the Shabbath? There is a proibition on carrying anything out of the house unless a special perimeter has been set up within certain limits to allow for such carrying....but a phone?

assuming carrying is allowed - using is strictly no no so why risk carrying a phone when it could lead to a possiblity of usage?

The Shulchan Aruch even goes as far as advicing against smelling a flower, for fear of someone unconciously picking the flower up and breaking it off from the ground hence transgressing the shabbath - that being the case how much more on carryin a phone.............

The main faults of the Rabbi were

(a) no focus on the debate theme

(b) personal attacks on the debater´s character when it should be on what´s being said with regards to the debate

(c) loved to drop names ..´my friend from Oxford´....etc

(d) he was not debating - he was preaching

Sadly he´s not the only Orthodox Rabbi involved in such shenanigans or dubious representations if you like, most of them do so, and CH is right, the do come across dumber than they look - simply because they´re stepping into an unfamiliar shere - within a religious context they´re beautiful people - if you´re in tandem with them.

By Ryan at April 04, 2008, 11:17pm

Boteach may have lost the argument, but Hitchens is wrong on Shahak: Shahak has been demonstrated time and again of being guilty of falsification and omission in his writings on Judaism. He is simply not a credible source nor did he ever produce evidence for his story beyond his own word.

By Valk at April 06, 2008, 2:21pm

see http://www.jstandard.com/articles/3064/1/The-imperative-to-heal

By null at May 20, 2008, 4:35am

Did anyone notice that in Boteach’s response to Hitchen’s he says the following:

“Less so does he cite a single source within Talmudic law, because he knows the Talmud says the exact opposite, that the Sabbath is desecrated to save the life of a non-Jew.”

Note this:
“Talmud says the exact opposite, that the Sabbath is desecrated to save the life of a non-Jew.”

Isn’t this the very kind of point that Hitchen’s source had raised?

Did the rabbi forget the meaning of the word “desecrated”? Was this a type-o?

By Bryan at August 15, 2008, 11:46am

As I understand it, the only time the Sabbath is not desecrated is when one performs no work during it. Even if that work is justified, authorized, or compelled by Talmudic Law, the day is still considered “desecrated” by that work (it’s sacredness was not upheld by refraining from all work).

The desecration here does not hold a negative judgment against the person who saved the life, as though they are being blamed for having voluntarily worked on the day forbidden of work, it’s simply the acknowledgment of the lack of the positive of having refrained from work on the day work is forbidden. In the case at hand, the person has performed the more positive act of saving a life, but one should not be confused as to think that the person performed both the saving of the life and the keeping sacred of the Sabbath, hence the “desecration” mentioned.

The right act is saving the life. The Sabbath gets desecrated in that act but the right act is still the saving of the life.

As I understand it, Hitchen’s source (real or not) was not arguing whether the Sabbath would be considered desecrated by saving a life but whether the right act was to save the life and desecrate the Sabbath or refrain from saving the life and keep the day sacred. In the source as represented by Hitchen’s, the rabbinical court ruled that the Sabbath should not be violated to save the life of a gentile and so ruled the right act was to not save the life and thus keep the sacredness of the Sabbath.

I do not believe the interpretation of whether saving a life on the Sabbath would “desecrate” the day was ever up for debate.

I am certainly no authority on the subject however, nor am I Jewish, so my understanding of the matter may be incorrect.

By Fool at August 27, 2008, 11:56am

What I find very disturbing is how Boteach appears completely unable to admit he was wrong.

Hitchens has clearly pointed to the same source he mentioned in the debate with added detail.

I’m afraid I can’t take seriously the subsequent tangent/challenge by Botaech who claims that the same sources investigated by the respected professional journalists working with Haaretz are fact frauds.

In the same breath, I’m not surprised. The manner in which Boteach conducted himself during the debate was not only embarassing to watch, but, illustrative of his intellect and grace. In other words, he hasn’t presented himself in a way that suggests he knows what he’s talking about. The exact opposite, in fact.

Boteachs debating skills appears to be to shout as many tangential remarks into the ether and hope some of it sticks.

Hitchens won this debate by a knockout in every round and if this was a real boxing match the organisers would be held to task for putting such a lightweight in the ring with Christopher Hitchens.

By Phillip Mc at February 05, 2009, 5:06am

His challenge was for HITCHENS TO PRODUCE A SINGLE RABBINICAL COURT RULING, not other things as the idiots posting comments seem to think.

I can say that Zionist Jews are part of a secret cabal that actually rule the world, and find Nazi doctrine that coincides with what I’m saying. Does that make it true?

The bottom line is - Hitchens made a claim is his book that has been proven to be false.  If he was wise, he would’t have taken Dr. Shahak’s word at face value, and would have done some research of his own into the claim.

By Sam Reid at April 27, 2009, 3:51pm

An open letter 2009-02-07

Dear Mr. President
Please help to stop torturing people in Democratic Europe!!!

It happens that Law enforcements (Police and Security guards) in a group has the ability to arrest people (especially dark-skinned people)- in the name of Law- no matter if they are actually guilty or not- and take them to some room (for example, any room in Law enforcement use- as dressing rooms(even the Law enforcement call it Swedish & German lager)! etc.- or to their vehicles or any other “blind” places with no public view) with no security cameras in it where they would beat up the people, torture or even assault sexually. When the victims of such cases would try to stand for their rights and turn to Justice the guilty policemen (or security guards) would always have the excuse- violent resistance to the Law, thus their duty has been to deal with them. Law enforcement would censor such cases so society doesn’t get to hear about it from the media etc. There have been many cases all over the Democratic and Humanitarian Europe (for more information (120 cases) – Mr. Juan Fonseca, the chief of Discrimination bureau in Stockholm, former member of Swedish Parliament (Cell # + 46733421988); Amnesty International EU Office; and others. Also some cases are covered by the media, for example, in Swedish channel 4 News has shown a video taken by mobile phone of a police officer where it could be seen how European Police were torturing refugees in such a “torture rooms”. In Stockholm main Police Station Picture of non cocas ion police officers pictures marked SS on .There are many other similar cases happening- even maybe right now when you are reading this letter and the guilty parties suffer no consequences. If such violence realized by the Law enforcement isn’t being stopped, victims are being damaged not just physically but also psychologically what may turn into some more violence when victims wanting to put out their insult and aggression for what they have experienced get violent to the rest of society, to the Law enforcement itself and even You- politicians, government etc. as there have been cases in France, Sweden and other countries when people come up with weapons and shooting, explosions and so on and so forth… And there are more cases in US and all over the world available on camera and videos as evidence to back up this proposal in order to end these kinds of barbarian behaviors.
solution to stop all this violence and have the justice would be- all Law enforcement should be carrying small camera (with memory of a few GB) attached to their uniforms- taping them on their duties or any action (it is not expensive technology when you compare its costs to expenses of courts when dishonorable officers are being sued by their victims). Such camera should be coded and the tape can be stopped or viewed only by some people in charge but not policemen or security guards themselves; such tapes should be collected from all the policemen and recorded daily- when they finish their working days.
There also should be placed security cameras in all the Law enforcement used premises and officers will be not allowed to take arrested people to any “blind” places away from public where nobody can see them.
Low enforcement communications should be taped 24 hours every day by some higher level Law enforcement unit (which consists from maximum diverse of people of different nationalities and races available in the country). The taped materials would be available for court use.
I sincerely hope that you will kindly conceder this matter not only as a President but also, someone who deeply cares about humanity. Hope You would bring this idea further talking to your colleagues all over the world because it is the Start of new beginning to make changes and have positive effect on every country. All the next generations would remember you not only as a 44 President but also as someone who has done well to the entire world and made the big change for the Justice and human right, and stopped racism, and discrimination all over the world hopefully.
With best wishes, and hope for a better world for us and our children. Truly yours: Rico Hendran
Post Restante
104 60 stockholm

By rico at June 11, 2009, 2:52pm

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